Reading the first few chapters of Part III of the book I could not help but feel how right the blurb of our book was when it says that, "Smith begins a secret love affair with a fellow-worker, Julia, but soon discovers the true price of freedom is betrayal". Orwell uncovers for us in an amazing progression of the story how people that Winston dearly thought he could connect to (and whom he had the intuitive feeling that he KNEW that they thought the way he thought) had after all, been part of the Inner Party and Thought Police. Charrington's identity is truly shocking and Winston soon learns that even Julia and O'Brien too, were merely "conspirators" who had been monitoring every movement of his during the past few years (seven).
Winston, on the right, being electrocuted by the dial, which O'Brien on the left has control of
What I thought was worth discussing is this :
1. Why would Winston still feel that "he had the feeling that O'Brien was his protector, that the pain was something that came from outside, from some other source, and that it was O'Brien who would save him from it? when it is pretty evident that it is he who inflicts the pain ? Is this out of a conscious will to not believe O'Brien's true identity?
2. Do you think it is very powerful what O'Brien said about there being no such thing as "martyrdom" because everyone is cured. Winston, according to him was not there to be punished, but made to suffer to accept the reality - no one had ever left "uncured" from the capability to think such dissident thoughts - judging by what has been happening so far in the novel do you think Winston can be the one exception?
3. When in p.270 Winston actually sees five fingers (when there is actually four) what do you think has happened? Is his on his way to being "recuperated" as the Party wants him to be or is this a conscious act, a defense mechanism?
Winston, on the right, being electrocuted by the dial, which O'Brien on the left has control of What I thought was worth discussing is this :
1. Why would Winston still feel that "he had the feeling that O'Brien was his protector, that the pain was something that came from outside, from some other source, and that it was O'Brien who would save him from it? when it is pretty evident that it is he who inflicts the pain ? Is this out of a conscious will to not believe O'Brien's true identity?
2. Do you think it is very powerful what O'Brien said about there being no such thing as "martyrdom" because everyone is cured. Winston, according to him was not there to be punished, but made to suffer to accept the reality - no one had ever left "uncured" from the capability to think such dissident thoughts - judging by what has been happening so far in the novel do you think Winston can be the one exception?
3. When in p.270 Winston actually sees five fingers (when there is actually four) what do you think has happened? Is his on his way to being "recuperated" as the Party wants him to be or is this a conscious act, a defense mechanism?
1. I personally believe that Winston chose O'Brien to be his protector because it is/was sort of his only hope. Winston has imagined this man for years as his life saver, as one of the main pillars of ''the brotherhood''. I also think that Winston is desperate. Also at some point in the chapter, he says that physical pain is the worst. Winston, as a human being, has been destroyed. His own pride, love life, work, personality and even conscious has been broken down. Yet, he does hope for a solution in O'Brien since he knows that he depends on him, he doesn't have any other choice.
ReplyDelete2. I don't think Winston can be the one exception, as I have written above, he is destroyed. Everything is destroyed. I do think that the people that leave ''the ministry of love'' are ''hollow'' and just like an ''empty shell'' when they leave the building since nothing is left. However, I do think that those people can be becoming insane and maybe mad in a way. If you have read ahead a little, we can see that Winston actually starts doubting about his own knowledge and conscious since his own mind has lied to him. His mind has lied to him because it believed and absorbed what the Party had given him. With this I mean the Party's control over Wisnton's life in the past seven yeas. They were basically waiting for him do at least something, they provoked him to rebel with giving him fake evidence, whisper in his sleep, and giving them a secret hiding place.
3. I think it is a defense mechanism yet NOT a conscious act. Wisnton, is, at this point, troubled by pain throughout his body. He feels as if he is ripped apart. His sight is probably not even clear. Maybe he even did see five fingers because of his condition. He wants to see five fingers, and due to his physical AND mental situation he sees the five fingers. If he already knows what five is, since the Party decides what's wrong and what's not.
- So Jung, thank you very much for posting this, the questions were very interesting.
Hi girls, I read through both of your posts and see and like what you're saying, but I'm not sure if I agree with you, Helen, on the first question. When I read this section every time Winston contrasted the two conflicting mental images he has of O'Brien what I was always forced to think back to was mental technique of blackwhite. Could it be that while denying the submission to the Party's reglementations and approaches, Winston does to a certain extent doublethink, too? Also, could it be that part of Orwell's message is that every human, sane or insane, fictional or real, you, me, Ms. Cox and whoever, to some extent uses blackwhite subconsciously?
ReplyDeleteAs a reminder, "blackwhite" means "the ability to believe that black is white, and more, to know that black is white, and to forget that one has ever believed the contrary." (221) So in other words it describes what is done, for example, in the names of the different departmens (ie. Ministry of Love, Ministry of Truth, etc.).
ps. So-Jung, for clarification: Is Julia really a member of the thought police? It seemed to me like she was into the issue just as much as Winston. I doubt that she was on the Party's side all along
I also think that Julia is a victim too, NOT a member of the Thought Police. She was also violently abused, so this only argues that she will be imprisoned too...
ReplyDeleteI agree with the fact that Julia is a victim too; however, if we were to believe what O Brian told Smith when he asked him what happened to Julia , apparently she "betrayed him" and confessed then converted very easily. Which might hint us that her conviction wasn't that strong or she simply did not have the physical or mental force to maintain her principals unlike Winston.
ReplyDeleteConcerning the issue of curing, I personally have some hope in Winston's ability to leave uncured as I think that he has a very resistant mind. As we saw even under huge pain he was still claiming to see what he sees : 4 fingers , except at the last strike when the pain was simply unbearable and even then he did not officially say it was five. However, after all the torture that he has been through, the traumatizing experience will leave such huge scars that he is now physically ill. Not only his body, but he's mind: and that it is what the party main goal is to take away the rebels ability to simply think, make them become numb and "empty as a shell". So what is left in these people apart of the emptiness is fear and pain. Even if he heals physically, psychologically he is probably never to reach a "sane" stable free minded state again but his suffering will make him able to be aware that he has been abused and unconsciously always believe that the Party is enemy. Yet I doubt he will ever able to rebel as he did before, unless things suddenly change and the Party is down.
Georg, I don't agree so much with the fact that Smith's love for O Brian is a good example of blackwhite. The importance that Winston gives to O Brian is in my opinion the result of a more deep state of depression that he suffers from. Smith is aware that O'Brian has tricked him and yet he loves him which due to the fact that when living in world where he was a 100% oppressed, O'Brian was for a very long time he's only source of hope as he felt that they taught the same thinks. Eventually he was wrong yet it is that source of courage that he provided him every time that gives him the ability to express that kind of love to him. In such situation of torture we never know what can happen in one's mind, it is so traumatizing that we reach a minute that maybe we ask for mercy so much that we ourself start believing that we like the person so that she could feel it and save us. Another hypothesis might be that Winston suffers from the syndrome of Stockholm where the victim takes the side of its abusers and develops a kind of empathy for him and understanding no matter how violent he can be.