After reading the last few chapters of the book a few questions were raised for me as Julia and Winston seem to be having their fun. Of course the initial questions were how they got around so easily however this question was already answered once the end of Book 2 was read. However what really raised the questions for me was how naive Winston and Julia seemed to be as they thought they were being vigilant when really they were being watched the whole time. They seemed to underestimate the party and what it could do to them once caught as they were talking about their interrogation and how the party would make them speak but wouldn't make them stop loving each other. 
My question to you is: Do you think Winston and Julia are being so Naive? Do you think it is from their desire to be with each other that makes them overlook the power of the party or do you believe it is how they were built and that they were always naive from the start?
My question to you is: Do you think Winston and Julia are being so Naive? Do you think it is from their desire to be with each other that makes them overlook the power of the party or do you believe it is how they were built and that they were always naive from the start?
I don't think they are that naive, only to a certain extend. They were carful through out the whole when meeting in all the other places but Winston's house. The fact that they got caught was pure bad luck , they were tricked. In fact, they were expecting to be caught from the beginning they knew that sooner or later it would happen. Speaking of their desire or love to each other I looked at it more as a pretext or the most powerful way for them to rebel. It is encouraged by their hatred to the party and not simple random pure love. A proof would be how when Winston was asking O Brian his questions once asking Julia about what happened to her , O Brian said that she easily betrayed him and was easily converted. It might be a simple lie, but if it wasn't it just proves that what she felt or claimed to do for Smith was exaggerated and that her words don't fit her actions as she does not have enough force to resist. On the other side, if we were to agree with the fact that they are naive and truly inlove we could say that it is that power that rises when they are together , the will to free from the operation by committing this crime.
ReplyDeleteI partly agree with you Hafsa, however, I don think that they became naive. In the beginning they took different ways in order to mislead the Police and avoid looking suspicious. And it wasn't ''bad luck'' that brought them together. Winston and Julia both had the same opinion and interpretation about the Party. Yet, Julia does it more to get her pleasure than for Winston's reasons. Because when they make love for the first time, Winston sees it as a political acts. I also feel like this is finally at least a step to rebellion for Winston. However, Winston and Julia are naive when they share their feelings towards each there. Because ether don't believe that the Party can ever get inside you. They think that they will always love each other even if they cannot express it to each other. Winston and Julia are naive from the inside.
ReplyDeleteIn correlation to to what Helen and Hafsa were saying, I also think that Winston and Julia are not naive from that start. They're actually quite the opposite, willing to to take risks but doing it in a specific, thoughtful manner. Although they they choose different ways to go about their opinions, they still have the same perspective towards the Party. Both of them realize the extent of how dangerous their meetings are, but meet anyways. This exposes a lot about their intentions and how much they are willing to risk for each other. Ultimately, their meetings mean death, and because they both have been trained through the party, they fully realize this.
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary, I don't think that they became naive over time or through their individual feelings. Like I said before, they fully realize that although they meet in secret places, there is still always a chance that the thought police could see how much they love each other. They know that if they get caught they will still love one another, despite the suffering they might endure. From what we have read so far, Winston hasn't said anything to betray Julia or admit to anything that they hadn't discussed, (after getting caught.) In my opinion, there is nothing naive about fully realizing what consequences could happen, but still doing what you believe.
Definitely agree with Hafsa, I believe that they both knew exactly what,would and eventually did happen to them from forming a secret relationship. I think that naivety isn't the right word for what their relationship eventually came to, more the word of comfortability. Once they had their own place that they could frequently go to they became used to it. "Both of them knew-in a way, it was never out of their minds-that what was happening could not last long. There were times when the fact of impending death seemed as palpable as the bed they lay on...But there were times when they had the illusion of permanence." 158
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with Hafsa and Tristan on this one. I think they are FAR from naive. They are two people who are strictly aware of the capabilities of the party. You see them being very precautions in whatever they are doing. And referring back to the second part of your question, the involvement of desire in their relationship. I think you see much less desire here than anything. We have seen many great examples of desire, in the play we read, A Streetcar Named Desire, but between Winston and Julia, I feel that this is a mere act of rebellion against the party. When Winston was reading out Chapter 1 to Julia she says, "'You read it,' she said with her eyes hut. 'Read it aloud. That's the best way. Then you can explain it to me as you go'" (209). It seems to be that she could care less about Winston and is just using him in her act of rebellion. Even when Winston and Julia were taken in by O'Brien. Julia cracked within minutes of interrogation, whilst Winston barely flinched. Therefore, I feel that the aspect of desire is present in the relationship, but only with one of them enforcing it, that being Winston. And in conclusion, I feel that they are not naive. They are very cautious rebels on the Inner Party but they got caught.
ReplyDelete